Father of Four, Ex-Felon, and Veteran Discusses American Government

Some people go to the military to protect their country, and others go for the educational and financial opportunities. But how often do we find out the background of some of our US soldiers before they join the military? The military is one of the few places where you see people of different walks of life, backgrounds, cultures, race, and religion unite as a group. While people have a habit of judging others from the outside, we tend to forget that people make mistakes, learn from mistakes, and can grow to be positive members of society. In the Q&A interview below, I speak with Phillip [last name withheld for his privacy], a 35-year-old man who is a father of four, a veteran going back into the military, and an ex-felon. Phillip and I talked about the state of America's justice system, the presidential election, Sean Levert and child support, and why he made the decision to go back into the armed forces.

Phillip, can you tell me a little bit about what happened to you to get a felony conviction?

Well, this guy pulled a gun out on me and my cousin, and this was in the building that I was living in. And we was in the basement, and he pulled a gun out on me and my cousin, and me and my cousin left and went upstairs to our apartment, and we was having a party at the time. I told everybody to leave, and my cousin went to my room and got my gun. So I went back and got the gun from him, then he left, ran out the building. And as I was leaving, he came back, and I told him we had to go. And then as we was leaving, the police came up. And I went back into the building, and they tackled me and asked if I had any weapons.

Was this gun licensed?

Yeah, it was a legal gun.

You had a license for the gun?

Yes I did.

So if you had a license for the gun, why were you arrested?

Because you cannot own a handgun in Cook County in Chicago.

At all? Even for licensed people?

Even for licensed people. You can have one in your home, but you cannot carry it outside your home. If you carry it outside your home, it has to be locked up.

Was there a reason that the other guy pulled a gun on you?

My grandfather's stepdaughter got into it with my cousin, and she pushed my cousin. And then he went to lash out at her, and I grabbed my cousin and her boyfriend grabbed my cousin, and we put him down on the couch, and I was telling him, "No, you know, you ain't about to hit her, we're going to leave," and that's when I stood up and turned around. That's when he pointed a gun at me and my cousin.

How did you manage to get out of that situation? You just left or...?

Just walked out. Told everybody, "Let's go."

Even with him with the gun? He let you leave?

Yeah.

Okay. You were convicted of a felony, correct?

Yes.

And how did you serve your time as a felon? Were you on parole or did you go to prison?

I was on probation for 2 years.

So you never served any prison time or jail time or anything?

Nah. Well, when they arrested me, I had to stay in the county for...

The county jail?

I was in the county for like four days.

In the county, you mean county jail?

Yeah, county jail.

And then they let you out?

Yep.

What were the terms of your probation?

I just had to go see my probation officer once a month and not get in any trouble.

Do you feel that was fair punishment for what you did?

I feel it was a fair punishment, but I feel the charge was wrong.

Because...?

I don't feel I should have been charged with a felony because actually, I think maybe a year later, they changed that law and said it was unconstitutional. And they changed it to if you ever get caught with a gun, if you have no prior convictions, and you serve out your probation, your charge would be reduced to a misdemeanor.

What year was this when this happened?

I was charged in '97.

And that was the same year that the charge occurred? 1997?

No, it happened in '96. I kept going back and forth to court with a lawyer trying to fight it, but he told me I had to take the plea or, if I went to court and took it to trial, I could face up to 3 to 5 years in prison.

And you were how old at this time? In '96 when the incident occurred, how old were you?

I was 24.

So you were 25 when you were given probation?

Yes.

So with that, you were on probation and you served your 2 years. They didn't wipe your record clean, I'm assuming, correct?

No, they didn't.

So how has it been finding a job since then?

It's been real hard. I had an opportunity to start working at the post office. I went and took the test. Passed the test. They were calling me in to fill out the application and tell me which job...to give me the opportunity to pick which job I wanted, and when I was filling out the application, the interviewer reviewed it and saw that I had a felony, said, "I'm sorry. Your interview is over. We can't hire any felons." So then I started working telemarketing jobs, and the job that I currently have now at [for confidential reasons, the company name has been excluded from this interview], when I got hired there, they just asked in the application if you have a felony.

So how long have you been with the company that you're employed with?

Eight years.

That's awhile. Okay. And in that all that time, they haven't asked you about your background?

Well, no, they did. They started...I want to say about 3 years ago.

So in 2005?

Yeah, they sent out a survey that we had to fill out online, and they asked have you ever been convicted of a felony, and you know, that's it.

So you filled it out?

Yes, I did.

Did you tell the truth?

Yes, I did.

Was it an anonymous survey?

Nope.

And you got no...there were no repercussions?

Nah. None whatsoever.

Okay. How has your family situation been since then? Are you married? Do you have children?

Well, I was married. I'm divorced now.

How long were you married?

Seven years.

Do you have children with your wife?

No, I don't.

Do you have children?

Yes, I do. I have four kids.

Okay, and with the situation with your job situation, it sounds like your job situation is okay now. And with the four children, I know you've heard about the Sean Levert issue about child support. Do you think...how do you feel the child support system is working in your favor? Or against your favor? Do you feel like it's fair for men?

Naw, I don't. I do understand that kids have to be taken care of. But I feel there's a fine line when the kids are being taken care of, but the man can't keep a roof over his head, or debate on whether I'm going to eat or pay or this bill, a light bill. You know, it's kinda hard, and the system doesn't really care about it. You know, they take a percentage out of your check. If you can't...the thing is if you can't keep a roof over your head, how are you going to spend time with your kids? And I mean, in my current situation right now, I live out of a room, and I can't have my kids here with me, you know, because there's no space for it. But the system doesn't care for it. I feel everything should be taken into consideration-if the mother works and how much he makes because if we were together, it would be both our incomes taking care of that child and taking care of that one household.

Was it easier for you in regards to child support when you were married? Do you feel like a married man would have a better chance of paying child support even if he wasn't with the child, or do you feel it's equally hard?

No, I think he'd have a better chance because then that would be two incomes because that goes back to my felony. I've worked two full-time jobs at one time-my current employer and then I had another full-time job for a couple months through a temp agency, and that's what I needed just to survive, just so I could keep a roof over my head, so I could eat, and so I could see my kids.

How much would you comfortably need to be able to have your own place, take care of your 4 children, and to be able to comfortably live? What do you feel would be the ideal annual income for a father of four?

Annual income. Rent is about $700 a month, and that's about $8,000. Child support [incoherent response]. So that's $20,000. Eat. I'll say, $200 a month. That's $2400. That's $25,000. Transportation to work because I work nights. Car. Roughly maybe $400 a month including car insurance and the car note. So that's about $30,000. Lights. Phone. I'd say roughly about, after taxes, roughly about $45,000 a year.

You think $45,000 could take care of you and 4 children?

That's after taxes.

Before taxes?

Before taxes probably about, I'd say, maybe $60,000 to $65,000.

How much is it you annually make now before and after taxes?

Before taxes I make $40,000. After taxes roughly about $25,000.

So if you make $25,000 and you feel like $45,000 is what you need to make after taxes, basically you need another $20,000 to be able to comfortably live, correct?

Correct.

Okay, do you think that that you're a unique case because you have 4 children or do you feel like a man with 1 or 2 kids with $45,000 is reasonable?

Yeah, I mean, if I only had 2 kids in my situation, it would be kinda hard, but it wouldn't be as hard.

Going back to the Sean Levert case, do you think men should go to prison for not paying child support?

Yeah, I do.

You do?
I do.

Why's that?

I feel it's a fine line with that. I feel like when a child is born, that child didn't ask to come in this world, so it's up to the mother and the father to take care of that child, but the system has made it so that it's hard for men to take care of their kids and live, but I mean I feel like a man should take care of his responsibility when it comes down to that child. Now if a man is not taking care of his responsibility when it comes down to that child, then that man should be punished for that.

And you think prison is the answer to that?

No. Not that extreme. I don't think it should be that extreme where they have to go to prison.

You just said that you do think they should go to prison?

It's certain situations. It's not in every situation I feel the man should be put in jail. I feel if the man is neglecting his responsibilities and has the means to pay for it and just doesn't want to pay for it, yeah, he should go to jail.

Jail or prison?

Well, they're both the same to me.

Well, prison you're in longer.

I mean I don't think they should serve no excruciating amount of time or jail, but they should understand...they should understand that this child needs some help. This child didn't ask to come into this world on their own. It took 2 to make that child, so it should take 2 to raise that child.

Okay, playing Devil's Advocate here, let's just say that a man who didn't want the child in the first place and the condom bursts or the birth control pill didn't work, and he begged the mom not to have the child and she had the child anyway. Do you feel the man should be held accountable for the child even then, even if he didn't want the child from the beginning?

Yeah 'cause I had that situation myself with one of my kids. No matter what nobody says, it's up to the woman what she's gonna do. When you sleep with someone, you're taking that chance no matter what precautions that you make or you take. You take the chance of that person getting pregnant. Now if you don't want to accept that responsibility, then you shouldn't have laid down with that person.

You had that situation happen to you. Now let's just say another guy doesn't decide to be the bigger person and says, "I didn't ask for this child. I don't want this child. I don't feel like I should have to pay for child support," and he doesn't. He ends up going to prison like Sean Levert. When he gets out of prison, say he does...what kind of time do you feel a man who refuses to pay child support should do? You said not a substantial amount of time, but how much time do you feel he deserves? Just a roundabout number.

I don't know. For me, 4 days was long, so I'll say 3 months, 6 months.

Three months. 6 months. Okay, so let's just say we go for the shorter amount, and he does 3 months. So he does his 3 months in prison, and now he says, "Okay." He's learned his lesson and he understands that his child didn't ask to be here and he's going to pay child support. But now he's having the same situation that you had where he now has legal issues. Do you believe he's going to have as hard a time in the workplace as you would?

Well, it depends on if they're charged with a felony. That's the hard thing because on job applications they just ask if you've been convicted of a felony. If his answer is no, he wouldn't have a problem.

What do you feel like [deadbeat dads] should be convicted of? A misdemeanor?

Yeah.

Do you feel it should work the same way for women? Let's just say a mom who doesn't want to take care of the child and the father is taking care of the child. Do you feel it should work the same way with women? They should go to prison if they don't pay and so forth?
Yeah.

What is your current situation? You have a job that's paying you even though they know you have a felony conviction? You're making $20,000 less than you really need to make to take care of your 4 children and have your own place, and you still have this felony conviction. How are you coping right now? What are your goals?

In March, I joined the military.

March of 2008 or March of 2009?

Yeah, March of 2008.

Okay, and why are you going to the military?

Because my current situation financially I will not be able to maintain the room I live in or be able to see my kids on a regular because I don't make enough money to do that, and like I said, I needed...I'm not scared to work full-time jobs, but the military is my last option because they're the only resource that hired me with a felony on my record.

Don't some companies ask you if you've had a felony within the past 10 years? The legal issue happened to you when you were 24, and how old are you now?

35.

Don't you feel like, after that 10-year-period, you'd be in the clear now?

Well, some of the jobs that I've applied for...I didn't finish college, so I don't have a degree.

You did go to college?

I did go to college. I went from '90, and off and on to '96. I took a couple years off because that's when I had my 2 oldest kids.

So how many years did you actually do in full? What would you be considered now? Sophomore? Junior?

If I went back to school now, I would be considered a sophomore.

Going backwards, you said that you've been out of the legal system...well, technically, you haven't been out of the legal system. The situation happened when you were 24, and you're 35 now, so there's an 11-year leeway period, and you passed the 10-year mark that some applications ask about: "Have you been convicted of a felony in the past 10 years?" You're at your 11^th year, and you don't feel like there's an alternative besides going to the military?

Yeah. This one place that I applied for they did say if you'd been convicted of a felony in the past 10 years, and I was able to say no, but the problem with this job was it was way out in the suburbs, and I wasn't guaranteed an hourly rate. It was a telemarketing gig, and I had to sell a certain amount of products in order to make money.

So it was commission based?

Right. At this point, I can't work off commission. I can't. That's not guaranteed.

When do you go to the military?

I got in in March, and I'm leaving the middle of August, beginning of September to Afghanistan.

In 2008?

Yes.

Are you going specifically for financial reasons or do you support the reasons we're over there? Do you believe in the War on Iraq?

I'm going over there strictly for my family and to put myself in a better situation to take care of my family, so I guess you could say I'm going over there for financial reasons.

And you will be gone for how long?

Actually they said a year to a year and a half.

And you'll make that $20,000 you needed to be comfortable?

Yeah, 'cause right now what I'm trying to do is pay off my debt. I have a student loan, back child support, and I owe the IRS, so I'll be able to pay off all my debt while I'm over there.

Why do you owe the IRS?

The reason I owe the IRS is because for 3 years, in order for me to bring home a decent check, like, say for instance if I made $1200 for that 2-week period, I would only bring home $600 every 2 weeks, and the reason why is because of the taxes and the child support that they were taking out. Child support, when I first got my job, was done totally wrong. They based my child support on my third child on overtime that I did at one of my jobs. I think it was like 30 to 40 hours worth of overtime, and they based my child support on my overtime, which they weren't supposed to do so that has put me in the rear as far as back child support is concerned, so I've been trying to play catch-up for the past 8 or 9 years.

How much do you make an hour now?

I just got a raise. I'm making $20 an hour.

It's $40,000 annually, and you're bringing home $25,000. That's a $15,000 gap. Is that due to taxes and child support, that middle part?

Yeah, that's all included 'cause it's usually my taxes and child support. Whatever I make, I bring home half of that, so making $40,000, I'm paying $20,000 out in taxes and child support.

I know this is an uncomfortable question, but do you expect to come back in a year and a half. Are you going to fight while you're in the military or what are you going there to do?

I'm going as a secretary because I've joined the military when I was in high school in '89. I'm going back as a secretary.

How long were you in the military before?

From '89 to '98 so 9 years.

Nine years and you did administrative work the entire time?

Yep.

What location were you in when you were doing this administrative work?

I was here in Chicago, and I started doing drills in Carbondale.

Carbondale, Illinois. So you were always in Illinois?

Yeah.

This will be your first time going overseas to Afghanistan?
Yeah.

Do you think that you'll be doing administrative work while you're over there, and do you think you'll come back in a year and a half?

Yeah. I think I'm going to be doing administrative work, and I do believe I'll be back in a year and a half.

If you're licensed to carry a gun, do you think that the military will look at you as attractive as a fighter or do you think they'll keep you with that administrative background. I'm sure that they'll know your background, and they'll know that you're licensed to carry a gun. Don't you think...?

I used to.

You're not licensed to carry a gun anymore?

No. Once you get a felony, you can no longer own or operate a gun for the rest of your life.

For the amount that you're getting, how much will you be getting after you finish the military? You said you'll be free of credit debt and everything else? What are you going to come back with-are you going to come back with this $20,000 or what's going to happen?

After I pay off my debt, I should be able to come back with at least $10,000 to $15,000.

But you can't live off of $10,000 to $15,000. You'll have to get a job again, right?

No, my current employer, they have to hold my job for me.

Legally?

Yeah.

For how long?

For five years.

So you'll come back to your job, and you'll still be making that same amount of $20 per hour, and you'll have...?

I'll be making more. While I'm gone, my job still gives me my set raises when I'm supposed to get them, so when I come back, I'll be making close to $22 an hour.

So you'll be making $22 an hour, and still working full time, and still with this job, and you'll have $10,000 to $15,000 to spare, plus your credit will be straight. This sounds like a pretty convenient deal. Did you even pause to join the military because it sounds like a too-good-to-be-true decision?

No, this was a long, hard decision for the simple fact because I have kids, and despite where I'm going and what I'm going as, I'm still going to a war zone, so this is not something that I wanted to do, but this was my last option. I don't have any other options to get a second income, so this will put me in a position so I'll have a second income from the military. And then when I come back, I can take out a guaranteed [veteran administration] loan through the government and buy me a building, so that way I can rent out 1 floor and live in the other 1, so I can have my own place. The income will be through the building.

So you want to get into real estate when you come back?

Right.

So ideally do you want to work at your present employer when you come back, or do you want to work on your own?

I'd rather work on my own because then I'll have the time to spend with my kids, but when I come back, that won't be an option for me yet. I'll still have to work at my current employer when I come back, but my goals are to have my own building and work for myself.

Since you leave in August, you won't have the opportunity to vote on the next president, will you?

Yeah, I'll be able to.

Through absentee voting?

Right.

You already filled out the paperwork for that?

The military takes care of all that.

So you vote on November 4^th like everybody else?

I don't actually know how that works. We'll probably end up voting early because we're overseas, and then our votes will be flown back, shipped back to the United States.

Who are you rooting for now?

Obama.

Who do you think our next president will be?

McCain.

(Laughs) That's so depressing.

I know. It really is, but I just look at the current situation and how the Democrats are going at each other. They're pretty much exerting too much energy to win the presidential nomination, but when it comes down to the fight to be president, they're both going to be too tired. They're going to be out of power to fight McCain, which he's sitting back, observing everything, and taking everything in, and he's going to use everything that's being dished out now for whoever [wins].

You can vote. Were you able to vote before you went to the military?

Yeah.

So you could always vote, and when you go to the military, you will be able to carry a weapon. Even as an administrative person, you will be...?

Yeah, I'll be issued what they call now M-14. Everybody that joins the military, you go through a bootcamp, and the bootcamp pretty much teaches you how to use every weapon that the military has as far as machine guns, grenades, handguns. They teach you how to use all those weapons, but once you graduate from bootcamp, whatever job you pick, that's what job they train you for after that.

How long is bootcamp?

Bootcamp is usually about 2 months.

So you can vote. There was never any time in your life when you couldn't vote, correct?

Correct.

And you'll be able to operate any type of weapon while you're over there, correct?

Correct.

But you can't work in the United States because of a felony conviction that happened 11 years ago. Is that correct too?

Correct.

How do you feel about that?

I feel it's very hypocritical. I feel like in the United States, I can't own or operate a gun, but I can work for the government overseas out of the country, and they're going to pay me to carry a gun. And I feel that that's hypocritical because I should be able to carry one regardless of where I'm at or, if I'm not allowed to carry one in the United States, I shouldn't be able to carry one anywhere else. I mean, I shouldn't be able to work for the government and carry one.

How do you feel about being able to vote but not being able to have a certain job?

I feel that that's very bogus because I feel like yeah, I can go out here and vote for a president or senator. You can vote for the politicians to put in office, but the politicians don't help you get through the situation that you're currently in as far as having a felony. I feel a felony...once you're convicted of any crime, regardless of what it is, whether it's a misdemeanor or a felony, once you do your time that you are faced with, whether that's spending time in jail or you're on probation, once you've fulfilled that commitment, whatever you did in the past should not be held against you. You get these guys that's been in jail 10 years, 15 years, or I'll say 5 years that they've been in jail. They come out no matter what they was convicted of, drugs, you know, whatever they was convicted of. They come out. They done paid their debt to society by being in jail. But now when they come out and trying to find a job to turn their lives around, they understand that, "Yeah, I made a mistake. It's time for me to get out here in the work force and do something positive with my life," the door is slammed in their face, so now what other option do they have but to go back out in the streets and do what they did before and get locked up, especially if they have a family to take care of. You can't take care of a family with no job and no money.