Missing Pieces (Radio) Transcript: Wayne Leng Interview

Transcript from Missing Pieces (radio)
Episode 7:
October 17, 2006
Guest: Wayne Leng
"The Missing Women of Vancouver"

ERIC MEADOWS (WCAN co-host): Glad you could join us here on October 17th, this Tuesday evening, for Missing Pieces. Another episode, which is hosted by Todd Matthews, founder of the www.LFGRC.org.
I want to welcome Todd to the studio tonight, how are you Todd?

TODD MATTHEWS (Host - Missing Pieces): I'm doing really good Eric.

ERIC: That's really great, I hear you have a guest with you tonight.

TODD: Got a guy that I have known for a long time now, about 7 years now. Wayne Leng from www.MissingPeople.net . I don't know if I can think of anything to talk to Wayne about, as if we don't spend hours and hours on the phone. (laughter) Welcome Wayne!

WAYNE LENG (Guest): Than you very much Todd.

TODD: I have been looking forward to this. We have both been through a lot of these interviews.

ERIC: Excellent, excellent. Wayne...I want to welcome you to tonight's show, it's quite a pleasure having you here.

WAYNE: Thank you Eric.

ERIC: So what is your specialty?

WAYNE: I had a friend disappear back in 1998, a very close friend. I got involved in trying to find out what had happened to her. At that particular time, women were going missing in Vancouver, British Columbia.

TODD: Only to find out there was a serial killer.

WAYNE: That's right, over time we have found there were 69 missing women, who disappeared from the Downtown East Side of Vancouver. We believed that they had met with foul play.

TODD: How long have you been involved in this....when was the beginning?

WAYNE: It actually started in April of 1998 when Sarah de Vries disappeared on the 13th. So that was then, I continued to search for her for the time following.

TODD: I am reading from the first poster of the missing women, in the notes that Wayne provided. In July of 1999, there were 31 women listed as missing at the time. A $100,000 reward was offered....America's Most Wanted was there. There are quite a few more women added to the list since then.

WAYNE: That's right, America's Most Wanted came to Vancouver to film an episode, I'd been working to try and get them to come there. Eventually they said there was enough information and that they would come to Vancouver to cover the missing women's case. At that particular time in July of 1999 there was a $100,000 reward posted, there was also the poster with the information.

As time went on, more and more women went missing...all the way up to the present 69 women.

TODD: 69 ...and the're still looking?

WAYNE: They not looking at this time (for remains) but the investigation is continuing, while the court case goes on. The trial will start in January of 2007, and the investigation will continue.

TODD: Wayne and I have talked about this case for about 8 years now. I remember back to the days before we knew what we know now about this case, and the ongoing trial being prepared at this point in time.

WAYNE: That's right Todd.

TODD: Now...where were the remains of these women found actually?

WAYNE: They were found on a pig farm that belonged to the Pickton Family. Robert Pickton, the man being charged with first degree murder on 26 of these cases. The farm is just inside of Port Coquitlam (British Columbia)...about a 20 minute to half drive outside of Downtown Vancouver, East Side.

TODD: Wow. The name Pickton, when was the first time you heard that name?

WAYNE: That name came up in 1998 after Sarah had disappeared, after myself and Sarah's sister Maggie had placed a poster up for a reward and an 800 number. The name come from a fellow name of Bill Hiscox, who work for Robert Pickton. Bill called me and said he knew of a pig farmer and that I should see what he had on his farm. He commented that he was a really strange character that had women's identification and clothes and that something was going on there that needed to be looked into.

TODD: What did you do with that information?

WAYNE: I had recorded the conversation with him and gave it to the Vancouver Investigation's lead officer. And I never heard any more about it after that.

TODD: That was the end of that...but it did come up again a little later.

WAYNE: Yes it did.

TODD: After how many more women went missing?

WAYNE: That's actual tape did surface on the news in 2002 after Pickton's arrest on February 22, 2002.

TODD: This guys covered a lot of ground, we really do not know how far back this goes?

WAYNE: Well, the disappearances go back as far as 1978 with the disappearances of a woman. Then in 1991 advocates in Downtown East Side were pushing for a tougher investigation. Then in 1995 four women disappeared from the East Side, and again in 1996 another 4 women disappeared. In 1997 there were 11 to 13 women disappeared in that year. Then in 1998 there were 10, and Sarah was among that 10.

TODD: That a lot of people over a long period of time.

WAYNE: Right, and it continued on. In 1999, in what they called a cooling off period... there were only 3 disappearances. But in 2001 one more woman was reported missing then in 2001 another 8 women disappeared.

TODD: Another thing...he only picked on prostitutes...

WAYNE: That's right, women who were drug addicted and involved in prostitution.

TODD: I think...because they were an easy victim.

WAYNE: Yes, I think that was the case...

TODD: I have used this term before...if they were "soccer mom's" or other people in society, do you think there would have been faster reaction?

WAYNE: Absolutely, there's no question that would have been the case. There were reports coming into the Vancouver police department about a lot of the women being missing. The reports weren't taken seriously, they were coming in from people who knew these women...family members. They were just pushed away...and told that they were just into drugs and move don somewhere else.

TODD: So you think it is possible that the police didn't follow up because they thought that they were possibly missing of their own free will - or just staying out of the way of police?

WAYNE: Or just moved on to another jurisdiction, they really didn't know back then. But there was really no effort to find out what happened. You didn't read about it much in the news. It was until 1997 when the first story came out, a small story about Janet Henry that went missing. Then nothing until 1998 when Sarah went missing when Linsay Kines with Vancouver Sun came out with an article called "Missing On The Mean Streets" and that is what really threw the whole thing into the lime light.

TODD: It's a huge story now.

WAYNE: Absolutely.

TODD: I'm thinking that there are a lot of people in the United States that still haven't heard of this.

WAYNE: Exactly...Dateline, it's been featured on America's Most Wanted three times. It's been on CNN and other productions, Internationally. But the thing is that there is a publication ban...that is the reason why you aren't seeing much about it now.

TODD: During the trial.

WAYNE: It's all over Canada....massive there.

TODD: The book..."Bad Date: The Lost Girl's of Vancouver's Low Track",by Trevor Green. I think that is on the first books when there was only 31 missing women.

WAYNE: Exactly that is the first book that ever came out about the missing women, 29 then 31 missing women. then Trevor wrote that book, and at that time, nobody knew what had happened. There were some theories floating around...that the women had gone off on ships at the Port of Vancouver, the possibly dumped at sea. I never bought into that, knowing Sarah, she would not have done something like that, she would now have gone fare away from Vancouver, least of all not have gotten on a ship.

TODD: Now the name Robert Pickton came up during the research for the book (Bad Date), but not included in the book. I remember that because you made a gift of this book to me.

WAYNE: That's right and another thing is that when I first heard about Pickton, back in 1998, I never took it too seriously. It was just one of those things...so, all I did was turn over the tape to the Vancouver Police Department. It wasn't really actually until shortly before the case broke in 2002, that I got a call from family member, Lynn Frey . She said, "You know that guy that they are going to charge with the murders...it's Pickton...remember Pickton?"

I said, "What...Pickton? That's the guy!" Then my mind flashed back to 1998 when I made the tape (of Hiscox). So we really didn't know how close we were back then.

TODD: Right on top of him...

WAYNE: Right!

TODD: Another book, "Missing Sarah" by Maggie deVries, sister of Sarah, your friend.

WAYNE: Yes it is.

TODD: That's a good book....

WAYNE: That's right, it's written from Sarah's childhood, she was adopted. She was a Native (American) mixed with African American, Mexican...adopted in an all White family. She grew up with a lot of prejudice and a lot of problems, ending up on the Downtown East Side eventually and disappeared from there. It's the story of a young lady who was very vibrant and cared a lot about the underdog, and became involved in drugs and prostitution. But she never lost her belief in people...and it was a tragic loss.

TODD: Now these books and publications...this is when we are actually seeing these people, rather than as prostitutes, more as PEOPLE. More humanized you are seeing their backgrounds, some of their family members...a lot more information.

Another book, "The Pig Farm", by Stevie Cameron.

WAYNE: Yeah, she's still working on that book and it probably won't come out until after the trial is over. That will be a very comprehensive book, covering right from the very beginning right to he end of the trial.

TODD: She's one of the best known investigative journalists...

WAYNE: One of foremost investigative journalist in Canada.

TODD: She's really worked hard, I know she's following every step of the trial I'm sure.

WAYNE: Absolutely.

TODD: "Killers on the Loose", by Antonio Mendoza.

WAYNE: That's from a an author here in Los Angeles. He did a book (Killer's on the Loose) that covered about 9 different cases, and the Vancouver Missing case is one of them.

TODD: Now why all of a sudden were people so interested? There are all of the books coming out now, but I remember a day when you had a hard time getting people to talk to you about this case.

WAYNE: I think what it is...is that so many women were going missing, they could no longer turn a blind eye to it. And it was our push for major media to come into it that really threw it into the limelight. The local authorities, the Vancouver Police, could no longer push it away. So they had no choice but to Look into it. I know when America's Most Wanted came into Vancouver, they told me they were going on a serial killer aspect, even though the Vancouver Police had said they didn't believe a serial killer was responsible for these disappearances.

TODD: But they were wrong.

WAYNE: They were definitely wrong. One of their own, Inspector Kim Rossmo, a geographic profiler, actually in 1999 wanted to issue a press release. Specifically saying that it was very possible that a serial killer was operating in the Downtown East Side, but the Vancouver Police dismissed it.

TODD: Do you think this release would have saved lives?

WAYNE: It is possible, but who knows for sure. Because when a person is involved heavily into drugs, it takes their minds off of what possibly could happen. They don't think about it, otherwise they would not be able to work the streets.

TODD: So the women knew there was a predator, among themselves?

WAYNE: Oh sure - they did. A lot of them knew, a lot of them had contact with Pickton. We didn't know before but we are finding out now.

TODD: How many women have been identified at the farm now?

WAYNE: Twenty-six, and a Jane Doe, so 27 now...that we know of to date.

TODD: So it is going to be difficult to build a profile for this Jane Doe so that we can identify her. Pretty much just DNA findings. I know you gave me a number before of how many DNA test samples were taken at the farm?

WAYNE: Something like 200,000 DNA samples have been taken from that land. They excavated some 378,000 cubic yards of soil, and at one time 103 anthropologists and about a dozen forensic experts working. As well as 100 investigators.

TODD: Wow, making up for lost time??

WAYNE: They have 35,000 pages of evidence on this case.

TODD: I wish there was something we could do for that Jane Doe. Pretty much now you have a silhouette of a woman and a question mark (on your site)

WAYNE: Right, he was originally charged with that one making 27 charges. Then they dropped that one (the Jane Doe) and he is now only charged with 26 in first degree.

TODD: BUT if a DNA match could be made for this person?

WAYNE: If a DNA match (an identification) could be made for this person....I don't know if they would include it or not again at this point. They have broken up the trail - instead of trying him on all 26 at the same time they have broken it up into 2 parts. The first trial is going to be 6, in which the evidence is different than in the last 20. The first trial is expected to take at least a year. If it had of been the whole 26 I think they were looking at about 2 years for a trial. And that would have been too long for a jury to sit.

TODD: A person would die a natural death waiting for a trial to be over, I know it has to be terrible for the families. I know what you have been through in the length of time that I have known you.

WAYNE: Yes it has been very difficult for families. Ongoing since their daughters disappeared many years ago, and even since the case became prominent in 1998. All of the media and the pressures have been difficult for everybody. The findings on the farm, the horror stories that have come of there...it's been horrible.

TODD: Now, you know some of the family members? You know quite a few of them.

WAYNE: Yeah, at one time or another, I've been in touch with about 35 of them.

TODD: Now, were a lot of those people surprised to find what had happened to their loved one?

WAYNE: Yeah, I guess in a lot of cases, yeah. Most everybody was shocked by the Pickton Farm.
When we finally found out in 2002 we finally had an answer. I moved away from Vancouver in 2000 because nothing was happening on the case. There wasn't any new evidence that we knew of, it was just like the case had basically gone cold. I came down here to California, and is wasn't really until February that all of a sudden it took off again, massive changes. Also the task force increased too, it became a joint task force between the Vancouver Police and the RCMP.

TODD: Did that improve the situation?

WAYNE: Absolutely, because the RCMP agreed to review the case because the Vancouver Police had not gotten very far
on it. When they stepped into it, that's when things really started to come together.

TODD: The RCMP (Royal Canadian Mounted Police) is like the of the FBI.

WAYNE: Yes, they are Canadian national police force basically. You have the city police like the Vancouver Police. Also in the case the problem was the fact that the women disappeared form the Downtown East Side of Vancouver. Which is Vancouver Police jurisdiction in the city, and the Pickton Farm is in RCMP jurisdiction.

TODD: Do you think this was just too much for the Vancouver PD... just too big?

WAYNE: I just don't know, it's difficult to say. We are asking for a public inquiry when the trial is over because we need to find out what happened. Certainly I believe there was a dereliction of duty, these woman just "did not count" in a lot of way with a lot of the police. I am not saying all of the Vancouver police, but certainly there were a number of them there that obviously did not pay attention to it.

TODD: Now you have a huge web-site at www.MissingPeople.net, there's tons of information on this web-site. There's still some missing women that they're thinking they might find on the farm.

WAYNE: Well, yeah because they're still going through DNA samples through that evidence. I don't know how long that's going to last.

TODD: There's still family members out there that have missing loved ones.

WAYNE: Oh, absolutely. They have twenty-six, actually twenty-seven, because just recently they identified through DNA another woman from Victoria, British Columbia.

TODD: We got some good news back in the summer. Wayne and I both got an e-mail from a lady that was suspected to have been caught up in this and turns out was alive and well, and that was a good moment.

WAYNE: Yeah, she was on the Missing Women poster and she had disappeared many years ago, and somebody had mentioned her name or something like that. She had actually gone into cold cases because she found out that she was on the poster, and so actually Todd met her on the Cold Cases group and contacted me, and then we got the ball rolling and started trying to take her taken off the list.

TODD: I don't think she wanted to come forward at first.

WAYNE: No, she didn't. When I came home, after you had told me about it, I gave her a call and talked to her. I knew for sure at that point that she was who she said she was. I immediately called a member of the task force and I told them, "Look, I have somebody here who I know for certain, I just believe she is who she said she is, and she's not dead. She's not missing."

TODD: There's always that doubt when you hear from somebody like that, I've heard these stories before. Somebody has a tip, some information that turns out not to be exactly what you think. It totally catches you off guard. You were pretty much the authority on this case, and I knew she had to talk to you as soon as possible, because I knew she didn't seem like she just wanted more than to have her name taken off of it initially, and didn't really want to get caught up in the whole thing.

WAYNE: That's right, her name is Linda Grant, and when I talked to her that night she was very emotional, pondering all of the things that this is going to bring to light. Her family, whom she hadn't seen in all these years, sort of thing. So, she was really overwhelmed, but at the same time, she wanted her name off the list, and she wanted her family to know that she was alive.

TODD: And Linda Grant has interviewed with the media now and in the archives we will include the link to some of her information, for those that are interested.

TODD: How do we know that the serial killer didn't venture into the United States and leave bodies in another location?

WAYNE: Well, what we have is a suspected serial killer, Robert Pickton, and he's innocent until proven otherwise, but in all likelihood it looks like he was mostly confined to the Vancouver area. The Vancouver police, the task force themselves, I know consulted with the Green River Killer task force. And also the case that had happened in Poughkeepsie, the Kendall Francois case, where 9 women that had been involved in prostitution had disappeared without a trace. All involved in prostitution and addicted to drugs. That's the on that I had tied the Vancouver case to when Sarah and these other women had disappeared. I said, "There's got to be a serial killer involved, just because these women's bodies are not showing up does not mean a serial killer has not gotten them. Look at the case in Poughkeepsie, where 9 women vanished without a trace. All involve din prostitution and addicted to drugs.

TODD: Now, this is a lot of work for one man, for one killer.

WAYNE: Yeah, and at this particular time, we don't know if there are going to be other charges later or not. I mean, if you look at the number of women who disappeared and how many he is suspected of killing, probably the majority, I mean there is not proof to that, but it's what most people believe. Yeah, over the course of that many years though if you look at, going back to 1987, that's a lot. That's a whole lot, and of course it increased, it increased in 1999, it increased in 1998, 1997, you know you have a lot...almost one a month there.

TODD: So there's a media blackout on the case now during the trial.

WAYNE: Yeah, there's a publication ban, and that's so a jury pool does not get tainted with all of the evidence. After all there must be a fair trial...regardless of what a lot of us believe.

TODD: One thing that bothered me for years, and I know it bothered you as well...was that the public face of these ladies, even before we knew what had happened to them...was mug shots.

WAYNE: Right.

TODD: I really felt that was so tragic, so Wayne and I came up with a plan. We had Project EDAN's forensic artists work as sketch artists. Like a sketch you might have drawn at a carnival. They took the mug shot, and created sketches to make the women look as what they might have been. I gave the artists the direction to give the sketches of the ladies a Mona Lisa smile, make them look pleasant. A lot of people were hoping to build memorials to these ladies, it was heart breaking to see the mug shot images, when that wasn't their real face. The mug shots were the faces of women marked by drugs and a very difficult life.

WAYNE: Right, and that project came out in the Vancouver Sun in their Observer section. It was a really beautiful article about a really beautiful tribute to these women and their families.

TODD: I think most people received it really well.

WAYNE: Yes...they did. For the most part it went over really well. We us the term in Vancouver, we don't say prostitutes...we say missing women. Because that is what they were, first and foremost they were human beings.

TODD: But it is so easy to put them in that category.

WAYNE: Well, we do tend to label people, it makes is easy for us. We can put a label on someone then we cam deny everything else that they really are...we can say they are this and that they are not worthy of anything.

TODD: That does not lessen the crime by any means.

WAYNE: No it doesn't, meany of these women got involved in survival sex for a number of reasons. But a lot of them came from families that were having problems themselves...and they ended up out on the streets.

WAYNE: No it doesn't, many of these women got involved in survival sex for a number of reasons. But a lot of them came from families that were having problems themselves...and they ended up out on the streets.

TODD: And we have seen that in some of the studies now because of this event. We have been able to go back and maybe have a better understanding of what happened, and maybe how we can fix (prevent) it. What are some of the ways you think that we can possibly do...prevention is obviously needed.

WAYNE: Yes, prevention is first and foremost obviously, and that has to start in the family, because that is the starting point...the family. There's not a lot you can do once they are out on the streets like the Downtown East Side. Obviously there are not enough resources in Vancouver, not enough beds for
detox. When somebody comes in for detox they are ready when they come in. Often they are told, "Sorry, we are not going to have a bed available for 2 weeks, a month or whatever." By that time, you've lost them.

TODD: There is a lot of violence against prostitutes, the missing women, and currently today they are subject to violence at any point in time.

WAYNE: Absolutely, because they are looked at as lowlifes by a lot of people. It is hard to get people away from that kind of label. I have talked to people down here in California, friends and co-workers. And even when I have told them some of the stories of these women...it could have been their daughter, this person was a human being, this person was a child....somebodies daughter, somebodies friend, somebodies wife. A little girl at one time.

TODD: Certainly your work and getting to work with you has changed my own point of view. I thin it was something I didn't really look at before. Wayne took me to Skid Row when I visited with him in Los Angeles for a couple of days last summer. And it was tragic to see that (Skid Row).

Skid Row has one of the nation's largest concentrations of homeless people, in part because it has a cluster of shelters and services to help them.

WAYNE: Absolutely, people sleep and living in boxes, a lot of drug addiction, prostitution. many really down and out people...really horrible.

TODD: A disposable society.

WAYNE: Yes, disposable society...that is the way they are looked upon.

TODD: Eric, you have had a an earful of this overwhelming situation.

ERIC: Yes...Wayne I do have several questions. Since Pickton has been apprehended, have the killings diminished?

WAYNE: They have stopped for the most part. There has been a few disappearances, but nothing on the scale of 1997, 1998 and in 2001.

ERIC: Have the developed or establish a motive as to why he was killing?

WAYNE: Not as far as I myself know, I know there are people looking into it still, but nobody can say for certain. It could have been his life, growing up as a child. He (Pickton) is definitely a strange character...no question about that. People that knew hi say that he is indeed a very strange person. But who knows why he did what he did, if in fact he is found guilty.

ERIC: The next question is toward the Vancouver PD. I am going to assume they knew they had a killer in the midst, right there in the city. regardless of whether or not the ladies were prostitutes or drug addicted, they knew they had a mass murdered right there in their midst....and they elected within themselves snot to do anything? Is this why there is this outcry for an inquiry?

TODD: There wasn't actually any proof of murder initially.

WAYNE: That's the problem, because none of these women turned up anywhere, there were no bodies found anywhere...nothing. So it was easy for them because the Vancouver PD had not had any experience with something like this, a lot of them thought that these women were just going on to other places. But all of us that knew them, friends and family, knew that these women would not be taking off from Vancouver, simply because they were tied to the Downtown East Side. Even though they were addicted to drugs and involved in prostitution, that was there comfort zone...their community. There's just no way they would have taken off from there. I knew that about Sarah, there was no doubt in my mind when she disappeared...I knew something had happened. But the Vancouver PD basically refused to much about it until a lot of pressure was out on by a lot of the activists and the media.

ERIC: So did they pick up the ball and start doing something after the RCMP got involved?

WAYNE: What happened first was that a task force was started, what they call a "working group" started early on. They were under a lot of pressure to start a task force, but they called it a working group. It started with about 9 officers involved. Eventually what happened was that the working group sort of fizzled out..going down to 6 officers and then down to 4 officers...something like that. Then there was a huge change that took place, evidentially more information came in and it was upped to 30 or so officers, after that the joint missing women task force came about. Then they had started getting evidence and information.

ERIC: You mentioned a Kim Rossmo, is he still investigating on the case?

WAYNE: No, Kim Rossmo was dismissed from the Vancouver PD. He is the one who developed the geographic profile system. He is now at Texas State University, very well known expert in geographic profiling. He now teaches and consults on cases here in the USA.

ERIC: Your still in touch with him...maybe we can get him on the air too at some point.

WAYNE: Yes, absolutely.

ERIC: Killers among us...almost hard to belive, Maybe it is because we have had so much exposure today. More technology to get more information out over the air. But to know we have these predators amongst us...I am beginning to believe that is maybe making up more than 10% of the population. We just have way to many people out there missing.

WAYNE: Right, one of the things during this whole investigation, the police came out with is that we have 600+ potential suspects that could have done something like this in Vancouver.

TODD: That's scary...that's just in Vancouver!

WAYNE: Right, just in the Vancouver area.

ERIC: Let me ask you, did you retain the recording that you took of the laborer that was working on the pig farm?

WAYNE: I do have it and the media has a copy of the recording. It was actually in the Vancouver Province newspaper, the whole excerpt.

ERIC: We sure would like to have you back to hear that at some point. I think our listeners need to hear something like that. It might light a fire under somebody that knows something...possible in other cases. Often it just take shearing someone come forward to move people into doing the right thing.

WAYNE: Right.

TODD: I'd like to see more of the Linda Grant type situation....

WAYNE: There was one other case where a woman came forward, her name was Mary Lands. She was staying back east for many years and now has been taken off the list (of potential victims) as well.

ERIC: When a person ends up on the list as a missing person, and are indeed alive...do they leave for one reason or another, or are they have just overlooked? How is it they end up on this list and are still alive?

WAYNE: In what I have read on Mary Lands case it seems she was wanting and needing to get away. She had problems in Vancouver and basically wanted to disappear, to move on. But actually if the Vancouver PD had really been looking, they would have found her as her name was with the Ministry of Human Resources. They could have drawn her name up and could have found her. That's the puzzle, as to why she ended up on the list for so long. A real puzzle because there was accessible information out there about her where about's. If they had have been looking in the databases...they would have found out that she was alive.

ERIC: You said earlier that the Pickton pig farm fell under the jurisdiction of the RCMP. Are they still in that location investigating...is this an ongoing thing?

WAYNE: Not any more, the search on the Pickton pig farm is finished...the house has been demolished, and there is nothing more going on there.

ERIC: So there are no Private Investigators still going out there?

WAYNE: No. Everything has been bulldozed over.

TODD: The DNA (found there) is still being reviewed?

WAYNE: Absolutely, they still have a lot of DNA review, still part of the ongoing investigation into the case. This is kind of unusual... because usually when you go to trial you have that sort of thing wrapped up, but not in this case. There are just so many DNA samples. The review is why they were about to move the 27th woman forward, because they found her DNA out on the farm.

ERIC: Usually when you have a case like this that draws so much public attention, and once the media has gotten involved, is a case like this used to enhance and profile other cases that are ongoing? maybe the way that they have gone to discover different evidence, are they using these same techniques now to maybe investigate other cases that are going on in other cities?

WAYNE: Yes...I think so because we have got case across Canada, one of them the Edmonton case
. A lot of the women are involve din prostitution and drugs that have disappeared there also being murdered. Another case in British Columbia called the Highway Of Tears where a number of women have disappeared, but most were not involve din the sex trade there. There's a case going on in Niagara Falls and Saskatchewan areas. So yes, defiantly. Todd and I, and a number of other people sort of link together on these cases and stay current with any new information that comes in. We relate and tie them together. There is an Edmonton task force on the disappearances and murders in Edmonton. I know that they have looked at the Vancouver case, and they did not want to do what Vancouver had done (early mistakes). They saw what happened to the Vancouver police and the RCMP in this case. And they didn't want the same thing happening to them, so they took a proactive approach, or so it appears that they did.

ERIC: On the western end of Canada, a lot of that area is in fact rural country?

WAYNE: Yes it is, a number of small cities throughout the interior of BC and up north as well. Vancouver is a big city, a huge city on the Pacific Ocean, just above Seattle, just above the US border.

ERIC: It is hard to believe that many people can go missing for so long...

WAYNE: and nobody say anything. The thing is, the media was not even paying attention to it either, one had to push. And the police weren't saying anything or asking the media for exposure in the missing cases. They just weren't doing any of that. You know it is, like Todd has said, if it were some body in another (more affluent) area like the west end, it would have been on the news immediately.

TODD:Can you imagine this happening inside the United States?

WAYNE: What is so strange about this is that the Vancouver police department is (physically located) right in the Downtown East Side. As one family member said, these women disappeared on the doorsteps of the Vancouver PD.

ERIC: So, basically the love ones of those missing actually made the outcry.

WAYNE: it actually started out very slowly. I had not heard to much about it, but Sarah had told me that women were going missing. And she wrote about it in her journal, but I really did not know to what extent, and you really did not read about it in the news. Until she disappeared and I went searching for her and went after media...then I managed to meet another family member on the Downtown East Side who was looking for their missing loved one. Then we started to come together that way because we found more and more people. There were really just a handful of us that pushed, maybe 6 of us altogether. Myself, Maggie (de Vries), Deborah Jardine, Valerie Hughes and only a few others that were being very vocal about it. Not a lot of the other families came in, I can almost understand why, it's difficult even in the best of time for anybody. But in such horrible circumstances as these, not everybody can do that.

TODD: When was Sarah's DNA found?

WAYNE: Oh...it was 2003.

TODD: I remember this time and I almost hate to even ask you these questions because I remember that it was so painful for you. But I know how well you know how important this is to get the information out. Can you go back to that day that you found out about Sarah? How did you find out (that her DNA had been found)?

WAYNE: Maggie, her sister phoned me here in California, to inform me that Sarah's DNA had been found. (www.missingpeople.net/sarah_we_hardly_knew_you.htm) She said that it wasn't to be released in the media yet, so I should keep it under my hat for the time being. I was at work and it really overwhelmed me...but at the same time there was some relief, because there was nothing up until that point. No information that she had ever been out there or anything, and I had feared we would never have an answer.

TODD: It was finally over...to some degree.

WAYNE: Yes over to some degree it was finally over. It put Sarah at the Pickton farm...and then the other question would be how she got out there. Because she was at my place, had come to pick up some clothes, have something to eat and then she was going out to work. She said she would call in a few days and she never did, 8 days later and I still had not seen here. So I took a trek down to the East Side and talked to a few people who knew her quite well, friends of hers, and they said they had not seen her either, in fact they were quite worried about her. So I told them that I would go and put in a missing persons report, because it was not like her to be missing for 8 days and not tell anyone...she just was not that kind of person. BUT, I was not allowed to put in a missing person report, because I was not family. So I called Maggie and told her that Sarah had vanished and told her that she needed to put in a missing persons report and she did. We did not know what time she had disappeared. But in my search for her on the Downtown East Side, about a month later, I found someone that had been with Sarah the night she disappeared and she told me what had happened. They had both gone out to work that night in the early morning hours of April 14th of 1998, one on one corner of the street, the other on the other corner, East Hastings and Princess Avenue . The other young lady who had been with her got picked up first, got in the car with a guy, they did not agree on anything and came back, by then Sarah was missing, and had not been seen since.

TODD: Prostitution is legal in Vancouver, right?

WAYNE: Prostitution is legal...but...solicitation is illegal. Which doesn't make any sense in itself.

ERIC: How long has it been this way?

WAYNE: I'm not sure when that law changed, I think in the 1980's, but I'm not sure.

ERIC: So prostitution is legal and solicitation is illegal?

WAYNE: Yes, for the purpose of prostitution which is not, so that is what you are charged with, solicitation.

TODD: Do you think this made this type of killing easy?

WAYNE: Yes...well what made is easy was that fact when Expo came to Vancouver. A lot of the women used to work on the West End, where all the apartments are, but after that they were pushed out of the West End and into the dark corners of the East Side, which made it much easier for these women to disappear...and to meet with violence. That's the way it still is today.

TODD: The fact that it's the solicitation that is illegal, that's what takes place in the dark corners.

WAYNE: Sure, absolutely it is. WEe talk about red light districts and things, and there have been people who have tried to get them in Vancouver. Even if you agree or disagree with having a brothel, we have to be concerned with the safety of the women (and community).

TODD: Now, if prostitution were outlawed there, would it make a safer society in that area?...How would that effect the drug abuse and additions?

WAYNE: No, I don't think that it would make any difference, the police tend to look the other way.

TODD: And if you had such an addition, how could you support it? (without prostitution)

WAYNE: That's the only way you can support it, these women were into survival sex.

TODD: I know you tried to get Sarah out of this world, out of that society.

WAYNE: Yes, myself and her own family and friends tried very hard.

TODD: So it wasn't a lack of her wanting to get out?

WAYNE:No...but she just wasn't able to make that leap...she had a lot of issues. Detox....the only time she went into detox was when she ended up going to jail for about 6 months. It looked like she was going to be OK when she got out, she was not planning to go back to that life. She ask her mother to pick her up from jail, but she took off a day early and went back to the East Side and back into the drugs again.

TODD: Looks like this killer picked the most vulnerable part of society that he could possibly pick. To me that feels even more evil because he was seeking the most vulnerable person that could possibly be found.

WAYNE: Yes.

TODD: Now what is happening today? There are good things happening, a new awareness. A lot of societies that have formed because of this crime. I know you are working on the board of directors and various other roles in a lot of different things going on up there. positive things. What are some of these things?

WAYNE: Well, I am on the board of the Missing Women's Legacy Society, which hasn't moved forward too much lately, there are problems. I was also on the board of director of a place called Grandma's House which was a drop in center on the East Side. There are a number of people in Vancouver in various organizations trying to do what they can for these women, and it is very difficult. To mention a few of them PACE, one called PEERS doing what they can, there's WISH. But there's just not enough resources and there seems to be a lack of will. Where is the money going to come from? Sometimes it's one organization against another...so it is very difficult.

TODD: They compete for the funding

WAYNE: Yeah, they're turf, very difficult.

TODD: There have been a lot of memorials...

WAYNE: Yeah, a lot of memorials. Every Valentine's day there's the Missing Women's Memorial. A march through the East Side and they stop where women have met their fate, placing roses, flowers and cards to remember them. And there are also some CD's that have come out a song called "Missing". It's a music CD inspired by Jack Cummer, the grandfather of Andrea Joesbury, one of the murdered women. It's a beautiful pieces that is being sold to support an organization for women that have met with violence and crime...

TODD: Even cases beyond this particular case...

WAYNE: Absolutely, it's for all women.

TODD: This case has helped with the public awareness for missing as a whole too. I know that for a fact as you have had a lot of people that have come to you for help, and you have been able to refer them others that can help. That has happened quite a bit.

Have you ever had a funeral, I know there have been memorials, but was there ever a funeral for Sarah?

WAYNE: No, to date there hasn't been anything. I think at some point, and it may be when the trial is over, there will be a funeral back east in Ontario. That is what her Mom says.

TODD: Do you think there will be an actual grave?

WAYNE: Yes, there will be a grave. Some of her things will be placed inside. Maybe some of her journals, she has a number of them. That's the way "Missing Sarah" was written, through her journals. She left behind a number of journals about her life on the Downtown East Side, and that's what made that book such a warm memorial about a wonderful young lady.

TODD: Now a lot of people are in a fever to write a book about this case, even before it fleshed out completely. But you know so much about this case, I would hope that one day that we will see Wayne Leng write his own book about this case.

WAYNE: Well, you and I have talked about that before and I have talked about it with others. But for me, that is a difficult thing, it would be mine and Sarah's story...but I am not at that point where I think I can do that. I know I need to write something on it and I do have a lot I want to say, I really do. And what I have to say you won't see anywhere in the press or any other stories.

TODD: I have a few thousand e-mails that we have shared between each other. We have shared many.

WAYNE: Yes we have.

TODD: A lot of time the conversations got really dark, then the other times...we always try to close the conversations on a positive note about the progress made and what we can do to foster more progress.

WAYNE: Right.

ERIC: Wayne, I have one more question to ask. It is good that there are memorial for the remembrance of these missing women. But I want to turn back toward the Vancouver PD. What have they done to provide protection, not only for the women that are soliciting. What have they done to improve things? Are they doing anything more than before they got a kick in the butt to go out and do something about this?

WAYNE: Well I am sure they are doing some things, they are not things that I can pick out myself. I know that they patrol more often, and the they have more officers. They do have a liaison in the Downtown East Side, in fact they had a very good one down there. His name is Constable Dave Dixon, and he deserves a lot of credit, because he knew a lot of the women who disappeared. He would go to court with them, he gave them his pager number and they could call him anytime if they were in trouble. A very caring person, someone who made a huge difference in the Downtown East Side. He was down there for 21 years, a member of the Vancouver PD. He is actually the guy that I went to as he knew Sarah. I went to him when I was having trouble trying to get her name into the press, to tell somebody that she was missing...and nobody was in tested. He gave me the name of Lindsay Kines at Vancouver Sun who was actually working on the story. Also he gave me the name of the TV reporter, so I went and saw both of them. I took Sarah's journals as they were always at my place. Sarah became the focal point of "Missing on the Mean Streets." So he (Constable Dave Dixon) was one person who believed that there was something serious going on in the Downtown East Side. I remember going down to him, I had sent out a letter asking for a $100,000 reward, I got together with other families and we made this request together. We each had our own letters. He had gotten his in the mail and I met him on Downtown East Side during a walk. He was with another Vancouver police officer and he introduced us.
He said this is Wayne, a friend of Sarah, he's been down here looking for her and something has happened.
And the other police officer said to Dixon, "They really have not disappeared, they have just taken off somewhere."
Dave said, " No...something serious has happened do these women."
That sort of told me what mind set that most of the Vancouver PD had at that time. They believed that these women had just taken off, but not Constable Dixon, he knew something serious had happened.

TODD: We always saw them as victims, not as criminals. A lot (police) saw them as criminals.

WAYNE: Yes.

TODD: A lot (police) saw them as criminals.

ERIC: Wayne are you in contact with Vancouver PD today? I means...what is their mind set today, has it changed?

WAYNE: Well, I stay in touch as much as I can with Kim Rossmo via e-mail. I have been in contact with Dave Dixon and he is no longer with Vancouver PD. I'm in touch with the task for simply because of Sarah's disappearance. In fact they made a trip down here a couple of years ago. They brought a lot of CD's down and wanted me to go through a lot of the items found at the farm to see if I recognized any of them. They showed me mug shots and gave me a subpoena to appear as a witness.

ERIC: Every week we do this show and it never ceases to amaze me what we are really facing. You would think that living in a civilized world today. In the free world that we live in, it's just so hard to believe that there is so much being done against people. I'm looking at missing children...just so much...makes for a full plate at the end of the day.

WAYNE: One of the sad things about trying to get attention when a loved one goes missing goes missing is the fact - we all notice it through the case down here like Chandra Levy it seems that it's only certain people that get this kind of attention. They are beautiful and come from a good family, yet when someone disappears that comes from a different kind of lifestyle, for whatever reason, it's more difficult maybe if they are not very attractive, it's so hard to get that attention for them. And that is just not right.

ERIC: No...it isn't.

TODD: The part of society that nobody wanted to look at.

WAYNE: Right. That's the problem and it is a real problem in our society, we seem to care less for these people that are really in deep trouble, very troubled people.

ERIC: Wayne, what do you think it would take, not just in Canada but throughout the United States, to raise the consciousness of the people? I was listening to a report today about the homeless in America are considered as a disposable portion of society. What will it take?

TODD: That is a good question, because I don't have any answers to that...because we are trying everything we can now. Obviously education, you have to first get people to see a person as a person. It's easy to say "don't judge", because we all judge. We look at somebody on the street and we automatically judge them. You see somebody down on the street and they might be drunk, or begging for money. But we don't know what put that man there...we have no clue. Yet we will draw conclusions about it, "he doesn't want to work" or this, that and the other. It just comes down to education, and where does this education start? It starts in the families.

TODD: Family values.

WAYNE: There are no easy answers as we have seen, this thing has been going on since 1998, a number of years. Still you know...people lose interest, they see all the stories and just lose interest. Wondering why all the focus and at times they could only care less. The thing is that this is really going to come into prominence all over the world starting January. (when the Pickton trial begins)
International media have been following the case (and upcoming trial). But they are not allowed to speak out about it , they have to keep quite. So if and when the media ban comes off, you'll hear about it just about everywhere in America. because the evidence of what happened to these women on this farm is so horrific, it will just boggle the mind. The Green River Killer case in Seattle will pale in comparison...once the facts come out in this case.

TODD: We'll definitely have to have you back

WAYNE: And Todd knows

TODD: There are a lot of things we have talked about in this case that we have not been able to speak about out loud. Even here today we could do 6 or more episodes and not get it all out.

WAYNE: Right...and then the things we know and cannot say. Things that just cannot be said at this time.

TODD: Overwhelming isn't it?

ERIC: It really is, it really is....that is the total of women that went missing during this time?

WAYNE: There were 3 posters that came out altogether. The first poster out in 1999, when Walsh - with America's Most Wanted - was in Vancouver, that one had 31 women listed. A few years later, another poster came out adding another 18 women to the list. The third poster came out on October 6th, 2004, they added more women. This 3rd poster, still the current poster, came out with a total of 69 women.

TODD: Of course I'll remain in touch with Wayne. We will definitely have him back and we have another facet of Canada in the spot light next week. Do you know our guest for next week Wayne? A friend of yours I think?

WAYNE: Yes, if I am not mistaken, my significant other, Holly Desimone.

TODD: Somebody Wayne found during his travels.

WAYNE: Someone I love very much.

TODD: I have watched this unfold over the past couple of weeks. I fear we will never run out of material.

WAYNE: Holly's Fight For Justice

ERIC: I have to say this show generates a lot of e-mails. usually after the shows we get flooded. Is it having an effect? I'd like to see some results come from it, and in time I think it will happen. Wayne it has been a pleasure having you. Todd, as always you come up with a really heart felt show. one that really pulls at ones heart strings of emotion. It brings one to a conscious level of awareness.

Gentlemen, I am going to bid you a good night. Todd, we will looking forward to having you again next week.

TODD: I'll be here, good night.

WAYNE:Good night and thanks for having me.