On the Record: Dar Williams

11/3/11: Le Pain Quotidien; New York, NY

In the decade and a half leading up to my interview last week with folkie musician Dar Williams , I did a whole lot of growing. Williams is only a few years my senior but has accomplished so much in as long a span. I spent my former years buzzing past the landscape of her musician-origination in Massachusetts between Keene, New Hampshire and Danbury , Connecticut; often with her strumming and singing accompaniment. I listened to her music when I was angry, I listened to her music when I was forlorn, I listened to her music when I was happy, I listened to her music for inspiration, consolation, and celebration. As a musician I guess that would have to be one of the biggest compliments; that the music created has prongs on the listeners heart in many facets. Dar Williams has settled down up the Hudson River and was recently in Manhattan for a concert at Symphony Space . I was lucky enough to get to sit and chat with Dar about all things personal, all things musical, and all things political/social before the show, nearby the Upper West Side space.

JESSE SCHMITT : One of my favorite songs of yours is "Are You Out There ." While it is quite literally a song about a girl listening to her DJ; the listless narrative, her indignation in the line 'I was out here listening all the time,' her apathy towards drinking in parking lots, and her anger when the DJ is no longer there; the song seems to have broader themes.

DAR WILLIAMS: Yeah it's just that moment when your consciousness wakes up. For me it was listening to WBAI but it was also reading "Look Homeward Angel," writing my college essay; there were moments when I realized the reins were in my hands. The message I was getting from my parents; I was very lucky; but the message they and others around me was 'we're giving you the tools but it's up to you; and whatever you want is what you want.' And our town produced a lot of Wall Street wizards; it also produced a lot of ski bums. But I didn't experience that pressure; I mean, I did and I didn't. It was more like 'we know you can do this.' So really the song is more about the moment when you realize it's in your hands. it's your brain, it's your conscience, it's your decision to find what moves you.


JS : What were six scorned (yet strangely understanding and eerily like-minded) women all doing at a Krispy Krullers at 2 am?

DW : (laughs) They're not doing anything at a Krispy Krullers at 2 in the morning unless they're part of a male fantasy. I listen to books on tape and there was this one with a woman who liked to dress up in red leather and ride all night on her motorcycle and it's like 'hmmm, who wrote this? A man or a woman?' So with that song ("Party Generation") I was trying to create this world. What could be better than going to a place with doughnuts, seeing all your angry ex-girlfriends and being redeemed by them? All in the same night: doughnuts, redemption.



JS : Obviously you are a singer and your body is your instrument but I'm curious your opinion of smoking. In NYC in particular; it seems even with the rising costs and depressed economy smoking is stronger than ever.

DW : I think the recession has brought a lot of that out. You know I was a smoker for a while; like 2 a day, when I was on tour and away from my house. I'd go out in back behind a dumpster because I didn't want to be a bad role model. Sometimes I'd find teenagers back there and I'd be like 'hey this is my dumpster.' I did that for a while and I stopped cold turkey for two reasons. One because it smells disgusting and two because I am so savvy about the things I'm being "sold." You know like the crappy food or the soda; all the things that I know are just 'the man.' The amount of high you get from a cigarette compared to the actual amount of damage that cigarette is doing to you. I felt like someone had absolutely conned me. And i felt so resentful of that; I just stopped. I just suddenly realized what we're doing to ourselves because that high is so over-emphasized. Woody Harrelson said if you want to quit smoking; every time you want a cigarette just take a deep breath; it will function the same way. So I did that; not that I ever was really an addict. But now when I see people smoking I want to just walk up to them and say you know you're being bought; somebody is conning you and it's lethal. It's just another way we're being co-opted.



JS : What do you think about a lot of the bands who are out there in the pop music scene these days? Many names ( MGMT , Foster the People, Empire of the Sun) just seem to be doing this weird, spacey, club-style music which appears to be turning their backs on the problems which you are still obviously very concerned about.

DW : Well I don't know too much about MGMT because they went to Wesleyan. But in terms of music we could be in a post-post Modern loop where as the artist you're creating this interesting statement on something even though you may seem apathetic but your audience doesn't get it. We were just talking today about the Grateful Dead a lot of the Grateful Dead's music was geared towards a personal God. I was talking to a guy recently and he was a Quaker and how much the Dead lyrics were the Quaker philosophy. The Dead talked about truth and justice and peace and your personal ability to feel redeemed and forgiven and loved and self loathing and self compassionate. But a lot of that was: find that love of yourself, engage, and make the world better. The Americana thing is happening a lot right now; it's like literally Depression era instruments being re-used. You know, it's almost like 'give it 5 minutes and then see.'


JS : A lot of your songs ("The Hudson," "Iowa," "Spring Street") use very evocative imagery from different places; is there a most striking place you have ever been to?

DW : Yes and no. Alaska is really incredible but you won't experience how great it is if you don't know how great Connecticut is. Arizona is really cool but I couldn't stay there for too long. California; you feel it. The Garden of Eden; everything grows out of the ground and they're using all the attitudes from the 60's. If you're looking for can-do, earthy-crunchy attitude then you've got to go to Wisconsin. But if you're looking to be spooked by really tall trees then you've got to go to Washington State. But they all have personalities. You've got to go where the ghosts are to write about things that people care about.


JS : As a traveling musician, where do you feel most at home?

DW : I have family in some places but unhinged from that...I really love Pittsburgh. Seattle. Milwaukee one of my favorite cites; I think Milwaukee is #1.

JS : Has your attitudes about being on the road changed at all now that you have a family?

DW : When you have a family you get really involved in your town. I was only home one weekend this fall; I will have been home only one weekend and on that weekend we had a "meet the candidates" event at our home. We feel really engaged and excited about what's going on. If one person gets elected it looks like I'll be able to sit on a Green Committee; hydro, solar, wind, biomass, bio-diesel; the whole 9 yards. That's the kind of thing you sit around and think about when you're 20 years old. 'Someone should put up a wind turbine.'


JS : Occupy Wall Street has been in the news a lot lately; what are your feelings on that movement?

DW : Haven't been down yet; feel terrible about it; sent them a case of soy milk and gave $10 to the Occupy Wall Street kid. I'm 110% excited about Occupy Wall Street because it's the only way that we're gonna get things done. You know, we get like ten different emails: WorkingFamily , DCC; all these different organizations and they all volley and push but Occupy Wall Street is a gathering of energy. I mean look what I do for a living; I get up in front of people and play music for them and gather energy that way. The fact that (Occupy Wall Street) is doing this; that they are nonviolent; now even the talking heads have said, 'you know what, they're intelligent.' That was so much more credit than anyone ever got in the 60's. The contact high that you're going to get there is unreal. I think that the vagueness will help them so that they can't be vilified, they can't be co-opted, they can't be turned into something that they're not --I think the openness has been, so far, very inclusive. I have been so much more engaged in writing letters and signing petitions than I was two months ago when I was like 'why bother; we're all just in our little houses and no one's going to be presenting this as a united force. We're so invisible.' Now it's visible and it's inspiring. I think the 99%/1% is taking some of the weight off the Democrat/Republican thing. When capitalism is headed towards cannibalism; that's a problem. Occupy Wall Street has been called an anti-capitalism movement and it's not. Our next step from this is action. In front of our computers, on our iPads , in discussions with friends; what we do with that information is our own. But the idea that 1% of the nation has hijacked the rest of us is unacceptable. It's about power and their focused effort to re-concentrate and strengthen the power and money they already have. I think that's valuable for us to understand; it's human nature gone horribly awry. I think (Occupy Wall Street) is great. I don't think it could have been any more focused without going off the rails.


JS: I was recently at an Eddie Vedder show and I had never been to see Pearl Jam before. As I sat there in the audience I was struck by how aggressive his fans were. It occurred to me that these people have probably been to this theatre and seen him play 100 times before over the last 20 years. I've been in the audience before and you seem to praise your fans before for their spunky individuality.

DW: All the people at my shows are all unbelievable people. I've had pediatric oncologists; I've had pediatric oncology hospice workers! I mean talk about God's work. I've had young people devoting their lives to organic PSA's. I asked one crowd about organic cafes and this woman came up to me and said I can give you the name of five; because these are where I bring my car to pick up scraps for our community farming compost. That's who's in my audience. People who feed off the energy of other people; they hook up with each other and they get things done. They're all across the board so much smarter than I am; and that's okay. If I'm the catalyst...



JS : One of your most perfect songs is "After All." In this song there is so much going on. The narrative seems to switch from the omnipotent to the mother to the daughter looking up to her parents to the daughter looking back at her parents to the mediator to the friend to the partner to the solitary individual.

DW : It's got a really subtle melody. I sort of let the melody bring me along. It doesn't rock; it walks. It's sort of reflecting at a time; looking back on your life. Thinking of depression as a "winter machine" synthetic cold cruel; and then you catch your breath and then... If moods are like seasons then everyone has a season; but I kept repeating the same season. A lot of that emergence from depression was an acceptance of what is about you rather than what you're supposed to be.


JS : Many of your songs tackle big swooping religious themes; are you a particularly spiritual person?

DW : Faith is very important to me; having a spiritual life. But that doesn't mean I'm very successful at it. I almost wonder if (a spiritual life) makes me not that good of a parent. Because when you're tending your soul (it) takes away from some of the concrete minutiae; like your ordinary life. But I think because I had clinical depression; not paying attention to what is going on and not feeling grateful for your 'life force.' I know a lot of people who don't have a spiritual life as it were but they're really really connected to the secular world and they're very, very methodical and they do a lot of good things because they're so 'one-foot-in-front-of-the-other.' I don't want to call myself a spiritual person; it happens to be a priority.


JS : I read in an interview you gave your big secret: "...we are gonna make it - but we'll be the last to know." Why do you think people broadly are all so negative?

DW : I think that's where the 99% & 1% conversation is one of the first very productive dialogues we can have. Because in a way we're talking to the 99% of our selves. 99% of our being really do care about the same things: community, love thy neighbor, mutual appreciation, food, happiness, gainful employment, and a pursuit of happiness that does not have to do with other people suffering. My next album has a lot to do with Greek mythology (and) start( ing ) the process of your impatient ambition. We all have to decide in our heart what we're really for. (Civil discourse) seems split because there's a real megaphone promotion: 'Selfishness,' 'Brand,' 'Unhealthy Living,' and 'Fossil Fuels.' There's this big megaphone and I think 99% of us are saying; 'aren't we going to drive ourselves off a cliff that way?' And they make it seem like it's a 50/50 battle but I don't think; at the end of the day; that anyone wants to be unhealthy or make anyone else unhealthy. I think that 99% of us really do want to have a renewable exchangeable future. So I think that to say: 'Dar's a sort of an earthy-crunchy-lefty-singer-songwriter and then there's this other HALF of the country.' I think we all want to make it. And I also think if you do want to make it; you don't have to be in a standoff with anybody; you can just find your tribe and do the work. It doesn't have to be "winning." You can just start a garden; there's so many good things going on in the world right now; you can just dig right in. And I think the question is there; is this sustainable? Is it physically sustainable? Is it socially sustainable? And I think the people who don't have sustainable models in their minds for how we're going to make it together are just wrong; empirically so!


JS : Do you have anything to do with the as-yet-unreleased film coming out starring Claire Danes, James Marsden, and Jermey Sisto called "As Cool As I Am?"

DW : I read the book and I liked it very much. The book was written based on the song.

JS : What is your biggest weakness?

DW : Lack of follow through. I get ideas like supernovae; I love to generate ideas, but its hard to see them through. Except for songs.

JS : I heard "Crystal Creek;" is that part of the new record?

DW : "Crystal Creek" is the new song. The records coming out in April. "Crystal Creek" is based on Artemis Goddess of the Hunt. When she was seen shaving; she turned the guy into a stag who was killed by a hunting party; his own hunting party.

JS : That's a pretty interesting inspiration for a song...

DW : If she's the Goddess of the Balance of Nature; like many hunters feel they are; safeguarding the balance of nature. You know, global warming, massive hurricanes, freak snowstorms which take out 20% of the trees in the northeast. That's a real bummer. She represents the cruelty of what happens when we tilt the balance of too far.


JS : If you had to boil the complex question who is Dar Williams down to a single sentence what would it be?

DW : A person who loves the planet; loves people and is extremely interested in language as a navigation tool (which really just means I love crossword puzzles).